RIP "Blud"

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:55 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnmfb9Dnkg

So i was watching this and I'm sure most of you guys have seen it before. I know Mosconi is considered one of the best players ever to most people... but watching him and Fatty play nineball, especially the first few racks was brutal... his ball making was incredible but position was just horrible... I know he is up in the years here but with is ball making ability I dont see age playing much of a part... It looked as if he was worrying about solely making the ball and just hoping he had a shot on the next shot. Then as well, just firing at bank shots and hoping he doesnt sell out.

Sure it was a different era then, but they were still playing for real money... hell this match alone the winner was getting 15k for which is more then most tourneys these days. It's like they were just playing in "Fuck it mode".

Sure, 526 ran is goddamn incredible, but if Mosconi plays 9ball like this, I could have given him the 8.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:11 pm 
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I saw Willie play in person and his position play was unreal. Who knows why he seemed out of sorts. My guess is he really didn't like Rudolf and it showed. When I watched him, he also complained about being an inch or two off line (or less). But I think it was part of his shtick or game.

My two cents.

Scott <<== thinks Heath would be slack jawed to see Willie play in person

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:50 am 
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ScottR wrote:
I saw Willie play in person and his position play was unreal. Who knows why he seemed out of sorts. My guess is he really didn't like Rudolf and it showed. When I watched him, he also complained about being an inch or two off line (or less). But I think it was part of his shtick or game.

My two cents.

Scott <<== thinks Heath would be slack jawed to see Willie play in person

Was the exhibtion 14.1? I'm sure his movement and high runs in that are incredible... I'm talking about how he plays 9ball though...

14.1 consists of really tight and precise movement mainly contained on 1 side of the table, which dont get me wrong is super tough. 9ball you have to play a certain ball and often its on the other end of the table and you have to send the cueball great distances to get there. It seemed like for those shots he was just shooting and not even playing for a general area but just sending the ball to that end of the table hoping for a shot.

On top of that, they were firing at banks rather then playing safe...

I partly think because 9ball wasnt really the big game then... I think it was still in it's infancy in terms of popularity... Fatty liked Banks and 1hole. Mosconi like 14.1, I imagine most people then played one of those or 8ball... with 9balls rise to popularity shortly after this was filmed which would probably have been a few years before Color of Money.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:27 am 
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I hate to comment on this because I am not old enough to comment on the times.

I would first say that what we watched was an exhibition staged for TV, I don't doubt that they didn't like each other but I am also sure that they were told to make it fun and action packed, playing safes and taking a long time between shots. I am sure some dopey TV guy who has no clue about pool probably pissed them off by telling them how it should go before the cameras started to roll. I think they cared more about the paycheck and just banged the balls.

Clearly both men were way past their prime and probably not playing competitive pool or gambling at the time.

As I said starting this thread I was not around them so it's hard to speak on the times, obviously 14.1 was a much bigger game and as you stated already it's a much different mindset, as well as the equipment and table set up being much different. If you've ever played on that old stuff you know it's much easier to move the rock now and they played a different style back then, the games mentioned didn't require the cueball traveling the way we play now. But I do have a very good friend who I used to play with every week up until about 2 years ago who is 91 now and he told me that when he was playing in the 60's the game was 9-ball, he says they didn't gamble/ play straight pool much. So that goes against all that I thought about the times.

To sum up

1) old guys past their prime
2) exhibition match for TV
3) take the $$$ and run

Jim <----Knows Willie would have drilled me at that time in his life

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:17 pm 
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Looks like an 8-ft table with 5" corners .
Both were seniors so, the sloppy play by their standards is excusable .
Willie's former sparring partner told me Willie played some 9-ball for cash.
He said Willie gave someone of Morro Paez's speed the 7-ball and broke his back.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:15 pm 
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JimBo wrote:

1) old guys past their prime
2) exhibition match for TV
3) take the $$$ and run

Jim <----Knows Willie would have drilled me at that time in his life

1. Probably.
2. and 3. Yes it was an exhibition for TV and they were both compensated for being there but the winner was also getting 15k. I think that would be more of an incentive to give a shit.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:54 pm 
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Icon of Sin wrote:
JimBo wrote:

1) old guys past their prime
2) exhibition match for TV
3) take the $$$ and run

Jim <----Knows Willie would have drilled me at that time in his life

1. Probably.
2. and 3. Yes it was an exhibition for TV and they were both compensated for being there but the winner was also getting 15k. I think that would be more of an incentive to give a shit.

I can tell you that on the third or fourth time they did this challenge and Fats ending up miraculously winning, Willie broke down in tears. And it was Fats that came and bailed Mosconi out.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Cornerman wrote:
Icon of Sin wrote:
JimBo wrote:

1) old guys past their prime
2) exhibition match for TV
3) take the $$$ and run

Jim <----Knows Willie would have drilled me at that time in his life

1. Probably.
2. and 3. Yes it was an exhibition for TV and they were both compensated for being there but the winner was also getting 15k. I think that would be more of an incentive to give a shit.

I can tell you that on the third or fourth time they did this challenge and Fats ending up miraculously winning, Willie broke down in tears. And it was Fats that came and bailed Mosconi out.

Whats your opinon on their 9ball play?

I just think thats how the game was played then before precision and strategy really jumped up for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:43 pm 
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They were 65/64 and both past their prime. Willie however was deadly serious about wanting to win. Fats was being far more the showman than trying to win. Willie for the most part ran out the right way but he did let the cue ball get away a few times.

This shot however shows that he could in fact play pretty sporty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnmfb9Dnkg&t=2711

A great read about all of these matches is The Hustler and the Champ by R.A. Dyer. It's the Inside Baseball of the very real rivalry between them. Nothing was staged according to the book.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:08 am 
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I played an exhibition match against Willie in 1991. It would have been a couple of weeks before he turned 78. Clearly not in his prime, but he still could play. We all know the significance of winning a single game of 9-ball, but as it turned out, I did. Willie got pretty quiet after losing in front of a group of spectators. He wouldn’t play again the rest of the day. John Ognowski (Loree Jon’s father and one of the pool room owners) told me later that even for exhibitions, Willie did not handle losing well.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:37 am 
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John Barton wrote:
They were 65/64 and both past their prime. Willie however was deadly serious about wanting to win. Fats was being far more the showman than trying to win. Willie for the most part ran out the right way but he did let the cue ball get away a few times.

This shot however shows that he could in fact play pretty sporty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnmfb9Dnkg&t=2711

A great read about all of these matches is The Hustler and the Champ by R.A. Dyer. It's the Inside Baseball of the very real rivalry between them. Nothing was staged according to the book.

Yes, at 65 they are past their prime but there are players in their 60s out there now playing considerably better then this. That shot by Fats was pretty sporty, but speaking of letting the cueball get away, the very next shot which was much easier IMO he got out of line.

I think back then, and since Im a youthful 36 I have no clue really, they played for general area position and in some cases, just that particular side of the table. I dont think the precise position for 9ball came about for possibly another 5 years after this video.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:38 am 
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Greg Berger wrote:
I played an exhibition match against Willie in 1991. It would have been a couple of weeks before he turned 78. Clearly not in his prime, but he still could play. We all know the significance of winning a single game of 9-ball, but as it turned out, I did. Willie got pretty quiet after losing in front of a group of spectators. He wouldn’t play again the rest of the day. John Ognowski (Loree Jon’s father and one of the pool room owners) told me later that even for exhibitions, Willie did not handle losing well.

Wow, no shit... I beat Ewa Laurance and Stefano Pelinga years ago at demos and thought I was hot shit... good story and congrats!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:53 am 
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Icon of Sin wrote:
John Barton wrote:
They were 65/64 and both past their prime. Willie however was deadly serious about wanting to win. Fats was being far more the showman than trying to win. Willie for the most part ran out the right way but he did let the cue ball get away a few times.

This shot however shows that he could in fact play pretty sporty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnmfb9Dnkg&t=2711

A great read about all of these matches is The Hustler and the Champ by R.A. Dyer. It's the Inside Baseball of the very real rivalry between them. Nothing was staged according to the book.

Yes, at 65 they are past their prime but there are players in their 60s out there now playing considerably better then this. That shot by Fats was pretty sporty, but speaking of letting the cueball get away, the very next shot which was much easier IMO he got out of line.

I think back then, and since Im a youthful 36 I have no clue really, they played for general area position and in some cases, just that particular side of the table. I dont think the precise position for 9ball came about for possibly another 5 years after this video.


I don't think you can use this video as an example of the standard of nine ball play in that era. Both of these old guys were playing a made-up version of nine ball - call shot and seemingly no push outs allowed. Because at that time 9 ball was all two-foul roll out in the tournaments and pro ranks.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:10 am 
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John Barton wrote:
Icon of Sin wrote:
John Barton wrote:
They were 65/64 and both past their prime. Willie however was deadly serious about wanting to win. Fats was being far more the showman than trying to win. Willie for the most part ran out the right way but he did let the cue ball get away a few times.

This shot however shows that he could in fact play pretty sporty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnmfb9Dnkg&t=2711

A great read about all of these matches is The Hustler and the Champ by R.A. Dyer. It's the Inside Baseball of the very real rivalry between them. Nothing was staged according to the book.

Yes, at 65 they are past their prime but there are players in their 60s out there now playing considerably better then this. That shot by Fats was pretty sporty, but speaking of letting the cueball get away, the very next shot which was much easier IMO he got out of line.

I think back then, and since Im a youthful 36 I have no clue really, they played for general area position and in some cases, just that particular side of the table. I dont think the precise position for 9ball came about for possibly another 5 years after this video.


I don't think you can use this video as an example of the standard of nine ball play in that era. Both of these old guys were playing a made-up version of nine ball - call shot and seemingly no push outs allowed. Because at that time 9 ball was all two-foul roll out in the tournaments and pro ranks.

Right I get what you are saying there but with it being call shot you would think their position would be a bit tighter... I mean regardless of the rules there is one thing about 9ball that has always been consistant and that is the balls are ran in order... to do that you need to play shape on a particular ball... to do that ideally a particualr side of that ball to get you to the next one.

Mentioning 2 shot roll out could be the reason... the fact that you would be able to push instead of playing the long multi rail position could be the reason that their position play on shape like that seems a bit weaker then what it is for modern pro players.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:54 pm 
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Cornerman wrote:
Icon of Sin wrote:
JimBo wrote:

1) old guys past their prime
2) exhibition match for TV
3) take the $$$ and run

Jim <----Knows Willie would have drilled me at that time in his life

1. Probably.
2. and 3. Yes it was an exhibition for TV and they were both compensated for being there but the winner was also getting 15k. I think that would be more of an incentive to give a shit.

I can tell you that on the third or fourth time they did this challenge and Fats ending up miraculously winning, Willie broke down in tears. And it was Fats that came and bailed Mosconi out.


Freddie,

Is this match on youtube to your knowledge? If not, what addtional details can you provide?

Regards,

Gideon<----curious as to how Fats bailed Willie out.


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