RIP John Davis

Been a Tough Year
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:49 am 
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Since we have been lacking drama here lately I was browsing around AZB. Apparently Mr. Harris has renamed this forum as he feels that AZB is starting to be just like here. Anyway it all apparently started with a thread in the cue and case gallery and has spilled into the main forum. Makes for an interesting read.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=420580

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=417404


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:37 am 
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I have something for that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:41 am 
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He should be happy that guys like Dennis, TW, BB, etc. push the price point of cues to ridiculous heights. It extends boundaries, which is good for the entire market, even his.

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will build cues for beer ... or Capao's NY cheesecake

playing cue: can't afford one


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:38 pm 
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If the shoe fits...


Jim <~~~~~ who is mr Harris???

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I am in a very very small group of people that can buy any cue they want that can make that statement.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:22 pm 
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Too much drama.

The market is the market.

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Last edited by JoeyInCali on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:12 pm 
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qbilder wrote:
He should be happy that guys like Dennis, TW, BB, etc. push the price point of cues to ridiculous heights. It extends boundaries, which is good for the entire market, even his.


I agree with what you just said but it got me thinking How much is too much for a cue? Also if we had to make a list of what makes a cue valuable and prioritize it what would it look like ?

For example

My list would look something like this

Maker
Level of difficulty/design uniqueness
Pedigree- Famous ownership
Materials- exotic wood / gold /diamonds

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:57 pm 
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Lenoxmjs wrote:
qbilder wrote:
He should be happy that guys like Dennis, TW, BB, etc. push the price point of cues to ridiculous heights. It extends boundaries, which is good for the entire market, even his.


I agree with what you just said but it got me thinking How much is too much for a cue? Also if we had to make a list of what makes a cue valuable and prioritize it what would it look like ?

For example

My list would look something like this

Maker
Level of difficulty/design uniqueness
Pedigree- Famous ownership
Materials- exotic wood / gold /diamonds

Thoughts?

All that are ruined by cheap plywood core, soft handle and soft shafts.
I think the main reason SW has stayed strong all these years is still good wood.
Too much is too much when you start seeing these cues being dumped for a loss.
China is starting to have knowledgeable buyers.
And they are very aggressive.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:23 pm 
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JimBo wrote:
If the shoe fits...


Jim <~~~~~ who is mr Harris???

FYI, not to be confused with this Mr. Harris! :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Location: Abnormally consistent..........
When you make up the T-shirts I'll take one with a pocket please.....XXXL. I like them baggie. 8)

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Quote: "TODAY IS THE DAY!" treasure hunter Mel Fisher


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:53 pm 
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Agree. Have to have a pocket these days.

My daughter wore her Ross is a asshole shirt to school one day by accident.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:32 am 
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Lenoxmjs wrote:
I agree with what you just said but it got me thinking How much is too much for a cue? Also if we had to make a list of what makes a cue valuable and prioritize it what would it look like ?

For example

My list would look something like this

Maker
Level of difficulty/design uniqueness
Pedigree- Famous ownership
Materials- exotic wood / gold /diamonds

Thoughts?


My list would mirror yours, if I were a buyer. But I'm not a buyer, and neither is Harris. I understand what it takes to make a cue in terms of time, cost, expertise, etc. So does he. I get the feeling he sees Dennis' cues as peers to his own because the cues basically look similar. He's ignoring the reasons that his cues don't pull as much as Dennis' or that he doesn't have the big pocket market Dennis has. And truthfully, he wouldn't like trading places with Dennis, anyway. If Dennis were making 150+ cues/yr, he wouldn't be getting paid much more for them than Harris does. Harris is delusional if he thinks he can make 150+ cues/yr and sell each one for $5K+. But I think he thinks he can.

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will build cues for beer ... or Capao's NY cheesecake

playing cue: can't afford one


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:08 am 
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We could go on forever trying to price cues, but lets face it, we live in a free market society. No one artificially sets the price.
A cue sells for what a willing buyer pays to a willing seller. For a cuemaker to question what another cuemaker's product sells for
is just bad business. The cue that was referenced is a collectable, it's not a commodity. You can't go down to the local pool hall
and buy 4 or 5 of them. Let's face it, the Mona Lisa isn't worth hundred's of millions because of the quality of the canvas or that
da Vince made his own oils.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:15 am 
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I see the custom cue market as a pyramid. At the tip is a very few buyers who can afford anything, and at the bottom you have multitudes of buyers who pay up to a few hundred for a playing cue. As you go from bottom to top you get more per cue but have fewer buyers in that market. When you reach the very tip, you can ask insane prices, but there are only a handful of guys on the planet who can buy. The builder has to understand his market and produce at a sustainable, balanced rate. Like any market, it's wise to diversify and play several levels so that you aren't dependent upon only a single tier. A common problem I see is that a guy locks himself into a tier and then over saturates it, uses up the buying base, thereby rendering himself moot in that market. It's much tougher to do at the lower tiers because the base is so vast, but the trade off is that you have to produce many more cues to achieve a good return. The tricky part is that once a builder is established as a bottom tier maker, it's tough for him to get paid well for a big cue. And likewise, a top tier builder who makes a low level cue for cheap may risk damaging his brand value in the higher tiers. The builder must be ever conscious of the ebb and flow swings of the market.

That all said, success as a cue maker is limited. I believe there's a cap on what a custom maker can earn, regardless of tier, and I'm afraid that cap isn't very high. Take a top tier maker for instance, where every cue is in the $10K+ range, but they only produce a few. If they push out ten cues in a year with that average price, they're grossing $100K, minus expenses. Roughly figure taxes & expenses to be 40% & you have $60K. Take a bottom tier guy who's cues run $500. He has to produce 200 cues to earn the same wage. This is why very few makers consider themselves full time, and most consider themselves hobby. It's very, very tough to net a six figure annual bank statement. I don't even know if it's possible with custom cues. It certainly wouldn't be common. This is why I always tell folks that you don't make cues to earn money, but rather because you can afford to. Sounds like a joke, but really it's not.

Anyway, that's how I see the cue market from a maker's perspective. Cue making has always been something fun for me, and I'm a practical minded kinda guy, so perhaps I see it differently than others. I have no delusions of grandeur or dreams of big money driving me to the shop every day. I just like cues.

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will build cues for beer ... or Capao's NY cheesecake

playing cue: can't afford one


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:34 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Lenoxmjs wrote:
qbilder wrote:
He should be happy that guys like Dennis, TW, BB, etc. push the price point of cues to ridiculous heights. It extends boundaries, which is good for the entire market, even his.


I agree with what you just said but it got me thinking How much is too much for a cue? Also if we had to make a list of what makes a cue valuable and prioritize it what would it look like ?

For example

My list would look something like this

Maker
Level of difficulty/design uniqueness
Pedigree- Famous ownership
Materials- exotic wood / gold /diamonds

Thoughts?

All that are ruined by cheap plywood core, soft handle and soft shafts.
I think the main reason SW has stayed strong all these years is still good wood.
Too much is too much when you start seeing these cues being dumped for a loss.
China is starting to have knowledgeable buyers.
And they are very aggressive.




PJ. - The biggest Jimbo's Ass Clown as witnessed by his rhetoric of hate and complete misunderstanding. Repeating lies over and over. Laminated Maple Handles and cores are not plywood you little Munchkin. You would be surprised who uses lams and pie lams in the construction of their cues. Your foot is in your mouth lying as usual. Plywood is made of douglas fir. I have told you this 6 times but you continue to lie about it in public like the POS you are.
Image

Spoken as the biggest Jagoff Part Time practitioner who can't produce any cue beyond a basic Plain Jane because of pure laziness and lack of any desire concerning creativity. Markets are always correct, people are wrong.

"First you are ignored.
Then you are laughed at.
Then you are attacked.
Then you win".

Mahatma Gandhi

PJ could not see the truth if it were looking him in the face with an endorsement by the Pope. People who knowingly tell lies are the scum of the earth.

PJ's Philosophy is based on his gutter/slum background which he can never raise above because of his flawed Spirit. Damaged goods for ever.

PJ go home, you are stinking up America with you BO.

Percy

Hey Pajamas, what I have noticed is you act like you have special or rare wood and what is clear to anyone who buys wood is that the wood you use is wood anyone could buy with just one phone call. Your bullshit is not so special at all.

BTW, I crap bigger than you cockroach.

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Last edited by scdiveteam on Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:43 am 
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Speaking of assholes who can't give away his crappy cues.
It's rise above, you idiot. Not raise above.
You're a dumb hood rat who bragged he's a millionaire. Lol
Oh, I can paint a mop and it will sell better than your stick.

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Last edited by JoeyInCali on Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:56 am, edited 3 times in total.

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