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 Post subject: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:17 pm 
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The topic of kitchen knives comes up quite a bit on the various knife forums. I get asked a lot of these same questions from customers, so awhile back I decided to copy one of the threads / discussions so people could just read through it when they have time.... This is a discussion among knifemakers mostly, but there is some questions from customers in there too. It's not the end all, be all, and it's rather long, but some of you may find it interesting.

Enjoy.....

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I guess I'm just a nut but - Why do we as Knife enthusiasts feel that it's perfectly O.K. to have Cheap Junk in Our Kitchens and Neglect and Abuse them?

Kitchen Knives are Knives that You actually--USE--Not just look at or carry to be cool.

They are Workers--they make stuff--they get hands on use--Everyday.

Somebody Help me Here.

I'm Confused.

You would Spend $450.00 on a Strider with Racing Stripes--that was made for Killing Sentry's--that you will never do--and You think Cutco's Are Expensive--or even Good Knives.

I'm Totally Confused.

Is it because You don't Cook ?

Is it because You don't ever Eat at home ?

Sorry--I'm Lost on a Forum that is all about some of the best--most expensive knives--made today--by Anyone.

Cutco--Are You Fucking Kidding Me ?

Very difficult Question.

The problem is--What is a Good Kitchen Knife?

Most of the Hardcore Kitchen Knife Folks now say that there are none that are Good--unless they are japanese.

These folks seem to all want a very hard knife that will hold it's edge a very very long time . The trade-off is that they are very very difficult to sharpen for the average user.(Actually Impossible)

They also -- because they are all 61 to 65 rc--are easy to Chip or Micro-Chip--even on Stale Bread.

These hard edged knives are available in Both Traditional and Western Styles and seem to have taken over the High End of the Market.

Prices seem to be in the $150.00 to $600.00 Range Per Knife.

There is one Brand of American Knives--I can't think of the name but I'll find out for You--That are made from D-2 and are in the 59-60 Range of hardness.

Aside from that--You are dealing with the German Stuff that is more like 55-56rc.

The German Style knives are still the number one with Professional Chef's because they will take a beating and are easy to re-sharpen.

You won't chip them if you accidentally hit them on the Sink or Counter top. You also Won't have a heart attack if one of the Apprentices picks up your knife.

This may surprise you but--If you are not going to get one of the expensive japanese Knives--You might as well go to Wal-Mart and get a set of their Chinese $8.00 Wonder Knives and Just be prepared to sharpen them after each heavy use.

Until I make one for Myself--I will continue to use the Cheap Ones.

I suggest:

A Large Chef--about an 8 or 9 inch

A Santoku--about a 7 inch

A Paring knife--under 4 inches

Those three sizes will handle most chores and I know that you already know how to sharpen and touch up the edge of Knives.

I changed the Factory Blunt Edges to a convex that is actually is about a 10 degree terminal and have no problem doing extra extra fine work and still can Horse them on larger tasks.

I just give them a Strop on Black and Green Before I use them.

It restores the Edge and takes off any micro-oxidation that may have built up while they were sitting the drawer.

Let me know if I can help in any Way.Let's go back at this and I'll try to stay Clam.

Here is my take on this Very Very Complicated Subject.

This will be a very long post.

Kitchen Knives are actually used more than all of the other knives we talk about in total.

They are the least cared for and in the past have been like the Red Headed Stepchild of the entire industry.

That is beginning to change.

I get so passionate about it because it is hard for me the understand how we can spend tons of money on rarely used knives and have absolute soft steel crap in Our Kitchens and then treat them like Crap.

Let's address Sharp First.


Most of you know that in Sporting Knives and Tactical knives--we all want our knives Sharp.

That level of sharpness is usually greater than 13 degrees and works like a charm for the Heavy Cutting we do in Field Tasks.

Kitchen knives--used by folks who know what they are doing are usually sharpened to Under 15 Degrees and Because of that Acute Geometry--feel sharper than all of the Sporting knives.

Kitchen knives are used Very Differently than Sporting or Tactical Knives.

They are not laterally Stressed so Plastic Deformation of the Edge(Micro Chipping) is less of an issue.

Most are more acute of an angle than a Scalpel.

They are very very sharp and Always should be. There is no Reason for them not to be. Regardless of the kitchen or the user or the presence of children.

Children should not be touching them--Just my experience with 4 children and an armload of Grandchildren. There is no knife for a 4 years old--they should not be touching them.

A proper kitchen knife should cut a tomato with no pressure except the blade itself--it should be able to cut it thin enough to read the newspaper through. It should do it by just moving the blade slightly and having that Sharper than a Scalpel Blade just slide through.

Any Level of Sharpness less than what I just described--is unacceptable.

Any Decent Knife can be sharpened like this and regardless of the price or Style of the knife--That is what your Kitchen Knives should be maintained to.

Now that we have that out of the Way--Let's address What you need.

As a couple of folks said above--You will never use most of the knives in one of those Sets or most of the Styles available by the better KNife Companies.

You need to look at what most of us do in the Kitchen.

As I said above.

A chef's knife

A Santoku

A paring Knife.

Let's take these one at a time.

A chef's knife.

This is the large and Long Blade that most of you have seen Chef's use--It has been called a French knife for a long time too.

As WaterCrawler Pointed out--There are two Basic Styles now--The Western and the japanese.

The Difference is that the Western--more Traditional Version has a little more Belly than the Guyoto(japanese for Cow Sword).

I have used both and Honestly see no difference in how they work but I am not as sensitive to these subtle differences.

There are two factors here that seem to be far more important.

Thickness or Weight and Length.

There is a movement to Thinner Blades than the Traditional European Knives. The Thinner Blades are Faster in the hand--less tiring in Sustained use and actually will slide through Meat and Veggies easier.

Blade Length has been growing also.

Most French Knives(Traditionl Name) are about 8 to 9 inch Blade. The japanese knives have been Growing in length and if you go over to the "Kitchen Forum" on KF you will see a ton of folks preferring 10+ blade lengths. I have no use for over the 8 to 9 but --as I said--I'm not up on the latest reasoning why.

The Chef's knife--no matter what style or Length or Thickness is the most used knife in most Skilled Kitchens.

Santoku:

This Style of Knife is not an old line traditional japanese Knife. It was first used after W.W.II because of all the Western influence in japan and westerners found the long japanese blades unwieldy in their Kitchens.

The Santoku's Name actually means "Three Virtues" in japanese. Veggies--Meat--Fish. the knife is meant as a kind if shorter compromise between a Chef's knife and a Paring knife.

It has a little Belly and is a Close to a japanese Wharncliffe as you will ever Get.

These knives have a Tall Blade and usually have a 6 to 7 inch Blade.

I find it to be the First knife I reach for in My Kitchen for almost any task.

Most of them are pretty thin in the Blade and very Fast in the hand.

I think--for any Serious Kitchen Knife user--It is a Must have.

The Paring Knife:

This is a small knife with very little or no belly that is used for taskes that the larger knives cannot be turned on the stuff to be cut.

Let me make this Clear--It is not for Fine Cutting Tasks--the Big knives are actually for most fine Cutting Tasks.

The Paring knife is for stuff that the larger Blade cannot be manuvered into.

I hope I described that in an understandable way.

Bottom Line--It is the least used knife in the Kitchen but is important for Smaller Tasks--Not Finer Tasks.

It usually is not sharpened to as Acute an Angle and it seems to not be made as Hard so it will not hold it's edge as long but again--It is not used very much.

These three Knives will accomplish most of the things you will need to do and if kept sharp they are all you need.

In choices--You do get what you pay for--Except for the Stuff like Cutco--not trying to be argumentative here but they are overpriced and are no different than buying any other in home sales stuff. Those knives are not worth more than about $10.00 Each. The $7.95 ones are Wal-Mart are actually better in the hand - and will do more work once Sharpened.

Let's talk about this Euro Style vs. japanese Style Thing.

The Actual Style of the knives is not the actual Issue.

It is the Philosophy.

The Euro Style Blades are Softer--a lot Softer and are easier to sharpen and less likely to chip--BUT--they will not hold an edge anywhere as long.

Because they are Softer--when you do put the preferred thin acute edge on them--they hold an edge even less. They have no edge spine strength to prevent the edge from rolling over. You really should increase that angle to about 15 degrees on most of them unless you are skilled with creating a convex edge.

I told you that the Question is Complicated and asking--What is the Best is a Question that has no Clear answer.

My Position is still the Same--Either Get a really good set of three--Like the Expensive japanese knives or get the Wal-Mart ones.

I see no advantage in the German ones--they are not much harder than the Wal-mart ones that have exactly the same feel and are actually thinner and faster in the hand,

You will have to learn how to sharpen--no matter what your Choice.

Kitchen knives have to be Sharp--if they are not--All of the Above is Moot and you can just use any thing you want--you will than never experience what a true Kitchen Knife is meant to do.

When somebody tells me that they have a kitchen knife that the have not sharpened for 5 years and it's still sharp--I see red.

Please understand--That is not Possible.

What you are actually Saying is--I have never had a Sharp kitchen knife in my hand before.

You should be able to cut a piece of Cigarette paper--unsupported and have it make ZERO noise. You should be able to take a regular piece of paper and cut it--with Zero Noise--that is sharp.

If you take a good knife and sharpen it--like we talked about above and put it in a Drawer or Block for 5 years--Would it still be sharp 5 years later--even if you never used it--NO.

Blades micro-oxidize and lose their edge--just from sitting. That is why you strop a blade before and after every use.

When you say--it is still sharp--I guess we have different definitions of Sharp.

Please feel free to ask questions but actually making a Brand Recommendation for me will not be easy.

Mike


Here is my take on Stainless vs. Carbon on Kitchen knives.

It is very Different than sporting knives or Tactical knives.

As You know--I'm a Carbon Steel man on Sporting and Tactical.

Strength and edge holding are issues that are not a consideration on Kitchen knives in the same way.

On a good--properly maintained Kitchen knife--You are re-touching the knife to keep that keen edge and you are using a much thinner Crossection.

Here is the Difference.

the Carbon steel blades will hold their edge longer--if made hard. than the Stainless blades made to the same hardness but only if you are using a Alloyed Carbon Steel--like A-2--D-2--52-100 Etc. Simple Carbon steel like 1095 will not hold their edges longer than the heavy alloyed Stainless Steel.

Yes--they will beat out 420 or 440-A 0r even 440-C but not high Moly or Vanadium or Tungsten or Cobalt Steels like S30V or VG-10 Etc.

You will find that the Alloyed Carbons will have a slight edge over them but only if they are as hard.

These Alloyed Stainless Steels get their Edge holding from the Added Abrasion Resistance of the Alloys--this , of course makes the more Difficult to resharpen.

The maintenance value of the Stainless itself is a big Factor too.

Stainless kitchen knives don't need the level of overall Care that the Carbon Steel knives do.

I am comfortable with both.

Another consideration is the Two F's. Carbon Steel Blade can Effect the Taste of both Fish and Fruits. If you are not Sensitive to this--Don't worry about it.

Bottom Line--If you are talking about expensive--hard knives--the difference is almost Zero,

If you are taking about cheaper soft knives--The Stainless is Probably the way the Average person should go.

As you see--totally Opposite to what I would say about a Sporting or Tactical Knife.

Ceramic knives are supplied with a low Quality Edge--too thick--and hold it Forever.

They are more than Acceptable for the Average Home cook.

My wife uses Her's all the time.

I would not be Caught Dead with it in my hand--except for Cutting Pomegranate--You can't cut it with a metal anything.

A True Ceramic Sushi Knife--with a proper edge on it is over $2000.00 and You can hold it up to the light and see You fingers through the Blade. They are as thin as steel blades and break from looking at them too hard.

Overall--I would say that for the Average person--Ceramics are fine.

You will never be able to do fine Cutting because the edge Spine has to be so thick.

You can re-sharpen them yourself--You need a n 8,000 + Waterstone and a number of hours to do it. It's best to send them in for Sharpening.


Steel Rods--unless they are Mirror Smooth should never be used on the Hard Kitchen Knives--You will chip them in a heart Beat.

Even Glass rods will chip some of the Extreme--Thin Edged and Hard Blades.

Any sharpener will work on the Softer German knives and all of the Cheap Ones.

No Cheap sharpener will give you the Quality Edge we are talking about above.

Unless you stone or sandpaper them to at least 2500 grit and then either Stone or Strop to at least 8000--You have not idea what the Difference in cutting ability of these better Kitchen Knives is.

Most Kitchen knives that are sharp at all --in the Average Home---have an unrefined toothy edge that seems sharp but goes dull very Quickly.

Toothy Edges have shards of Carbide sticking out of the edge and they Feel sharp and seem to cut aggressively--but--they break off quickly and you end up trying to cut with a dull knife--You reach over and grab Your Steel and expose more of those little Teeth.

This just keeps happening over and over--You never actually Got the knife Sharp in the First place.

A refined and polished edge will stay that was for at least 500% longer and only require a quick Strop it restore it to Crisp Cutting Again.

Huge Difference .

Most people have never had a truly sharp knife in their hand.

They Are Shocked the first time they do.

It is not only more Efficient--it is safer--You don't have to push hard to accomplish the task.
I fully agree that the Woustof is harder than the Faberware and is much better made.

The point I was making was that the Woustof is actually Not that much harder than the Cheap Faberware and--The Woustof usually has a Bolster.

I know Bolsters were in for a very Long time--they are not a Good thing.

They set the angle for the Edge and it is not Acute Enough and you end up with a huge Difference in the Edge--itself--from the Plunge line to the point.

Without a Bolster--You can get a Clean Edge that is Consistent.

I guess I forgot to mention that no matter which knife you start with--Get the Version without the Bolster or you can Remove it.

A lot of work but it does help.

There was a Day when the German and French knives were King--It is Gone--they have been De-Throned.

A Kershaw Shun in VG-10 will hold an edge far longer than any of the German or French Knives.

Regardless of the Choice--refining the Edge--in a Thin Crossection--is the only formula to a good efficient Kitchen Tool.

My Favorite Chef's knife for years was an H,G, Long( Sheffield) that is Just like the Woustof's.

I was never going to change--No matter what those jap crazy Kitchen Forum Crack Pots said--I knew I would Never change--I swear I would never change --Nobody could make me Change.

But in a Sense of Fairness-I thought I better test drive a Couple and see what all this Lying and Deceit was about.

Well--I have never gone Back.

With that Said--You do know that I love all of Peter's Knives.

You do also Know that I have been in this Business a very Long time--Longer than Peter.

You do Know that Peter does not make his Knives.

Who Makes them?

Could It be the Same Hattori Factory that makes the HIgh End Shun and the Hattori's ? ? ? ?--O Yea--and the Al Mar's ? ? ? ?

Is it all the Same VG-10 ? ? ?

Ground on the Same Machines ? ? ?

Heat Treated IN the Same Place ? ? ? ?

All to the same Specs ? ? ? ?

Are they all the Same knives--Just Gussied Up a little Different ? ? ? ?

Great Knives but....They are japanese--Not Swedish.

That is a Whole Different Subject.

Back to this one.

Knives with Bolsters are heavy--It was said for a very Long tome that they Balanced Better.

First--I'm Talking about Full Height Bolsters--the ones that go all the Way down along the Plunge Line to the edge itself.

You may agree that it's better Balanced--Now that I have used Bolsterless or Half Bolster Knives--Those Actually Feel Clubby and Not Balanced.

I get far more control and feel of the work--without all that weight at the front of the handle.

Not Trying to Convert You--Just giving my Opinion.

There is Sooooooooooo much to choose from.

It is difficult to make a one shot choice but....

I'm not a Fan of Clad Stuff.

I'm a firm--No Drag man.( See My many many Posts on Blade Coatings) The Cladding is very Rough compared to a solid Blade

Hattori is probably the Finest Semi-Production and High End Production Knife Company on this planet. I can make a Knife as good and as sharp or even Sharper--I cannot match their level of fit and finish.--I'm in Good Company--Nobody else can either.

As to the japanese Super Steels--I'm just not a Believer yet.

They seem to have great edge retention but they all seem to lack strength or toughness.

I can't really play with them to experiment because I am not allowed to purchase any. They are all Protected and only japanese makers can buy them.

That includes VG-10 and the ZDP Steels.

Kind of makes it tough to have an objective opinion on how they can be used.

It's the way the japanese makers protect their market.

Here is the Crux of my problem with them.

It's not the Style--I have grown to like the knives.

It is the hardness .

If you look at the elemental Breakdown of their Steels and Super Steels--You will see that they really are not much different than a whole bunch of other steels that are available.

Some are Dead Nut on for 440C--Some are more like 154CM and Others are Like S30V or N690 Bohler.

The ZDP Steel is just a Shit load of Carbon and Chromium.

None of these Steels seem to have any magic Formula that would allow them to be used above 62 Rockwell. In fact--Most are like American Steels that we would Never use that hard.

Now--We know that they are putting out Kitchen Knives at 64--64 and even 67 Rockwell.

We also know that these knives are Micro-chipping or outright Chipping on Stuff that the Softer German Knives are sailing right Through.

We also seem to see these Super Steels being --large Carbide Steels--Even the CPM Versions have pretty Big Carbides.

Could it be that they are using these Steels in Clad Form because they would break in a Full thickness Blade?

Or

Are then just putting out--Untempered Steel--that is still full hard and too Brittle to be made into a Full Blade.

They sure Do Chip Easily.

I'm really Good with a knife--Sporting use--Hunting Use and Kitchen Use--I occasionally hit an edge where I shouldn't--I occasionally have to horse a Blade a little to get a Job done.

If you do that with these knives--they chip--right now--Big Time.

Something does not make sense to me.

I've been making knives for 30 years and can't get my head around 64 Rockwell in some magic Steel that doesn't seem to have any magic in it's elemental Make Up.

Are you following Me.?

( I want to make Clear that I'm not Talking about the Hattori and Shuns Etc that are put out at 58-60.)

I'm talking about all the other high end Semi-Customs and Even Most of the New Customs.

One of the Conceptions that a lot of folks have is that Kitchen Knives are somehow cheaper than EDC, Hunting knives and fighters.

This is actually not True if you want to get some that actually perform.

Kitchen Knives are no different than all other knives.

Most of You would not be Caught Dead with a Cheap Folder or Fixed Blade.

The Best example I can give is the stuff You see on T.V..

The Stuff that You can buy 120 Knives for $99.95 on late night .

When You buy Cheap Kitchen knives--that is the Quality you are getting for You Most used knives you own.

I do realize that a lot of folks here don't cook or have the wife do all the Cooking.

For Me--If I would not carry a $2.00 Folder for me--Why would I use a Kitchen knife of the Same Quality?

To me--A knife is a knife--It does not matter what i use it for--I want it to perform properly.

KNives are all Tools and a set of Cheap Sockets will twist off and not work--very Quickly.

Cheap Kitchen knives go dull from looking at them too hard and make cooking more of a Task.

I'll give my answers and we can have other give theirs too.

A refined and polished edge is one that you can see yourself in. It will reflect Black objects as Black--Not Grey.

There are a Couple of ways to do it.

Power equipment makes it pretty fast and easy.

I'll cover that first.

I have a shop full of Grinders and Buffers and can do it quickly.

Set your edge on a 220 or 320 grit belt.

Then go over that edge with a 600 grit Belt

Then go over that edge with a 15 micron Belt

then go over that edge with a 9 micron Belt.

I then remove the wire and polish with Black Compound on a Stitched Muslin Wheel

Then I go to a Green compound on a Stitched Muslin Wheel

Then I finish with White Compound on a Loose Muslin Wheel

Mirror Edge with no trace of Wire.

Method Two with Power Equipment--this one any of you can afford.

You need a 1x30" belt grinder--like the $30.00 one from Harbor Freight.

You set the Edge on a 320 belt

You go over it with 15 micron

Then 9 Micron

Then you use a 1x30" leather Belt with White Compound.

This is the method that Jerry Hossom Developed and it will work on any edge---Jerry and I both will always recommend a Convex.

Now the manual way.

Get a couple of blocks of wood.

I use 6" x 2". Glue down some good 6 to 8 Ounce leather--Try E-Leather.com or Tandy--it is called Belt Stock.

I use it finished Side up.

Take one of the Blocks and cut strips of sandpaper that overhang the block on both ends.

I usually use a Thumb Tack on each end to hold the paper tight.

Start with 320 and strop the knife until you have an eve burr.

Then repeat with 600--then 1000--then 1500--then 2000--then 2500.

You should have a pretty shiny edge but you are not finished.

Remove the paper and apply Black Compound to one of the Blocks--Strop on the leather until you have a very very shiny edge.

Then take another block and apply the Green Compound--Strop until you have an even more of a mirror finish.

Then take the Third Block and Apply the White Compound and finish on that for you total Mirror Finish.

You will also not have any wire and your edge will be refined.

I usually go one more step and strop on plain leather.

Now with Stones--You start with a good medium Stone--usually finer than 320. You go finer and finer with your stones.

When I use Stones I usually Stop at 8000 and then go to the Strop to finish.

I know all of this sounds time consuming.

It is--once--You only really have to do all of that once.

When you have an edge properly refined--you then only need to maintain it.

99% of the time--I only need to strop on the Black & Green & White to restore an edge to perfect.

How to hold a consistent Angle ?

Tough one for me.

I convex sharpen EVERYTHING.

You don't ever have to worry about angles with a Convex Edge--it adjusts itself--all you do is make sure the Very edge is contacting the Medium.

I have been free hand sharpening for so many years --I have never worried about angles--I look at the knife--lay it to the Stone and sharpen it--with the angle that is there--unless I feel it is too thick or too thin--then I re-set it.

I don't own any sharpening Gizzmos and frankly find most of the too complicated for me.

Once you learn how to free hand it--You will never give those things another look.

I had a manufacturer of one of those things send me one to test--It had a book--a tape and a DVD. It came in a Wooden Box that had more metal arms in it than a box of Angry Spiders. I never did figure out how to use it and never will. I sent it to Reid and he never figured it out either.

It would ber great if Adam or Lee would come over and explain how they do their Kitchen knives.

I had one of Lee's to test and he had to threaten me with Bodily harm to get it back.

He is a great manual Sharpener.

He or Adam may have some insight to the free hand thing that they can explain better.

I will say that having a knife--with a proper edge in your hand can change you life.

Wayne(The General) is also a master of the Free Hand Sharpening thing--Wayne--Please jump in here and give your Views too.

I firmly believe that all knives should always be this sharp--regardless of their Purpose or their Geometry.

The more refined the edge--the longer the edge will last in use--even in hard use.

I want to make something Clear--For Me.

I never--never--under any Circumstances use Serrated Blades for anything.

I really don't care who uses them or who doesn't.

A Proper Sharp knife--Should be able to Cut Bread. Hard Crust or Soft Crust.

Serrated Knives tear anything they Cut.

The Finer the material--the more it gets Torn.

I know I buck the Tide on this but I use a Very Sharp Thin Knife to cut Bread.

I have seen many people ruin all kinds of Bread--Fish and Meats--like Turkey with Serrated knives.

Serrated knives saw through stuff--they don't actually or Technically Cut Stuff.

I'm interested in Cutting.

We all have seen Chef Tony and people like that on T.V. cutting all kinds of things from Tomatoes to Shoes with the Ginsu Like Serrated knives.

That is Great for folks who want them.

I have no interest in serrated knives.

Give me Sharp and Proper Geometry.

Let's not Fight over my Testing methods.

I'm open and Up front about what I like.

No Cinder Blocks or Shoes here.

These are knives for Food--I'll be using Food.




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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:17 pm 
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Location: Palatine Illinois
Thanks for posting it was a good read about knives.

The most dangerous thing in a kitchen is a dull knife.

IMO stainless knives suck unless they are serrated like a Spiderco Mariner. As a commercial diver that was the knife I snap hooked to my breastplate on every dive as they did not rust and because they would cut wet rope very good. I used to keep it honed sharp with a stone on the edge side and used a fish hook sharpener on the round scallops on the reverse side.

I agree that carbon steel knives are at the top of the list for sharpness.

I use carbon steel Solingen Steel knives from Germany in my kitchen. I hone them now and then as needed. I have had them 27 years and they will last way past my lifetime for sure.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:00 pm 
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I know how much you cuemakers LOVE that Rosewood........... or maybe for those folks on a diet ??? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:19 pm 
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You guys like knives, this one I've had for a few years and its been the work horse out of the whole stable. Image

Image

Image

After closer scrutiny I've noticed some chipping in the blade. Now I'm wondering who to send it to for a professional sharpening.
BTW the answer is yes, I'm left handed. That's strange that you'd guess that.


Last edited by Steppo on Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:25 pm 
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Steppo.... beautiful blade. What can you tell us about it? What made you decide on that one?


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:27 pm 
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scdiveteam wrote:
Thanks for posting it was a good read about knives.

The most dangerous thing in a kitchen is a dull knife.

IMO stainless knives suck unless they are serrated like a Spiderco Mariner. As a commercial diver that was the knife I snap hooked to my breastplate on every dive as they did not rust and because they would cut wet rope very good. I used to keep it honed sharp with a stone on the edge side and used a fish hook sharpener on the round scallops on the reverse side.

I agree that carbon steel knives are at the top of the list for sharpness.

I use carbon steel Solingen Steel knives from Germany in my kitchen. I hone them now and then as needed. I have had them 27 years and they will last way past my lifetime for sure.

Rick


Thanks for the post Rick..... I know exactly which Spyderco blade you're talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:39 pm 
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The blade is a Masamoto VG10 Gyutou 8.2"
The reason I have this blade is because it was a gift. I wish I could tell you that I'm an educated knife user but alas I'm just a poser with a good blade.


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:06 pm 
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Good read. I have Globals that are about 10 years old that have never been sharpened. If I don't want to sharpen myself what is the best way to go about getting them sharpened?


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:19 pm 
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Steppo wrote:
The blade is a Masamoto VG10 Gyutou 8.2"
The reason I have this blade is because it was a gift. I wish I could tell you that I'm an educated knife user but alas I'm just a poser with a good blade.



Steppo
It looks like a hybrid between a Japanese blade and a Western style blade.... Handle is western and the blade has a secondary bevel.... Can you take a picture of the other side of the knife? These knives can be left handed or right handed...... (sounds weird - like a left handed cue....LOL) depending on how high the bevels are on each side. Are you left handed?


Last edited by meridianblades on Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Lenoxmjs wrote:
Good read. I have Globals that are about 10 years old that have never been sharpened. If I don't want to sharpen myself what is the best way to go about getting them sharpened?



I would bring them in and drop them off and have them professionally sharpened....probably wont cost much.


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:51 am 
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Nothing too crazy in my kitchen. I have a cheap chineses block set and then my 3 go to knives in the kitchen. this santoku, 6 inch chef knife and an inexpensive mustad filet knife(i think its 8 or nine inch). i use a set of dmt diamond 'stones" that are really 1/3" inch thick 8"x3" steel plates. coarse, fine, extra fine, and extra extra fine. I'll also use a leather strop with the green chromium stuff rubbing compound. The cheap chinese knives sharpen fast and with little effort but dont hold an edge long at all, but they were cheap and like i said sharpen up fast n easy. the three go to knives def hold an edge much much longer and and are a pleasure to use. the santuko see more use then all of them for chopping all the garlic and onions used in this house :) it also came with a companion 4" tility knife that i keep sharp and gets used for a lot of fruit and opening packages... the stones work magnificently for my needs. They keep the blades hair popping sharp and the large surface of them is great for the longer blades.


These are just stock images since im to lazy to go to the kitchen and snap pics but these are identical and the filet knife is one you could find in any sporting goods section for under 30 bucks. but its 440 ss thin and sharp
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:03 pm 
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Larry:
I agree with a comment that I think you made, that most people think they know what a sharp knife is, but they don't. I include myself in that group to a certain degree. The only difference is that I'm pretty sure that I don't know how to sharpen my knives the way that they deserve to be. So, with all the sharpening instructions on youtube, is there one that you can point to that you would consider to be the best for me to follow? I'm talking mostly Western kitchen knives, but I also have a Randalmade model 16 diver's knife. What angles are appropriate for these two types?

Thanks in advance.

Roger


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:49 pm 
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Jersey jer wrote:
Nothing too crazy in my kitchen. I have a cheap chineses block set and then my 3 go to knives in the kitchen. this santoku, 6 inch chef knife and an inexpensive mustad filet knife(i think its 8 or nine inch). i use a set of dmt diamond 'stones" that are really 1/3" inch thick 8"x3" steel plates. coarse, fine, extra fine, and extra extra fine. I'll also use a leather strop with the green chromium stuff rubbing compound. The cheap chinese knives sharpen fast and with little effort but dont hold an edge long at all, but they were cheap and like i said sharpen up fast n easy. the three go to knives def hold an edge much much longer and and are a pleasure to use. the santuko see more use then all of them for chopping all the garlic and onions used in this house :) it also came with a companion 4" tility knife that i keep sharp and gets used for a lot of fruit and opening packages... the stones work magnificently for my needs. They keep the blades hair popping sharp and the large surface of them is great for the longer blades.


These are just stock images since im to lazy to go to the kitchen and snap pics but these are identical and the filet knife is one you could find in any sporting goods section for under 30 bucks. but its 440 ss thin and sharp
Image
Image



Jerry
I think those stones are great if you can use them. I have a few of those myself.... Kinda spendy but do a good job. I noticed the the Henkels you posted don't have the heel.... that's interesting. you know where the bolster comes all the way down the plunge line.... so its harder to sharpen. Mine all have the heel, so they are a PITA.....to deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:00 pm 
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RogerO wrote:
Larry:
I agree with a comment that I think you made, that most people think they know what a sharp knife is, but they don't. I include myself in that group to a certain degree. The only difference is that I'm pretty sure that I don't know how to sharpen my knives the way that they deserve to be. So, with all the sharpening instructions on youtube, is there one that you can point to that you would consider to be the best for me to follow? I'm talking mostly Western kitchen knives, but I also have a Randalmade model 16 diver's knife. What angles are appropriate for these two types?

Thanks in advance.

Roger



Best thing is to drop them off and pay the $20 bucks or so to get them done right..... You can also try some of the home sharpening products. A lot of people (who hate to sharpen and want something fool proof) have tried this system here and really liked the results.....Are you going to get the same results as having them pro sharpened.... NO, but they can be used to put on a decent edge and for maintenance for standard western style kitchen blades. Follow the simple B-O-Y for how dull the knives are... Start with Blue if they're really dull, and move through orange to yellow.... https://secure.edgemaker.com/sections/p ... prod_id=18

The angles are really personal preference.... depends on usage. Lazer thin for kitchen seems to be very popular...which also can mean fragile (chips easily).... The Randall I would convex, for a strong reliable edge for hard usage.


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 Post subject: Re: Kitchen Cutlery
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:53 am 
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meridianblades wrote:
Jerry
I think those stones are great if you can use them. I have a few of those myself.... Kinda spendy but do a good job. I noticed the the Henkels you posted don't have the heel.... that's interesting. you know where the bolster comes all the way down the plunge line.... so its harder to sharpen. Mine all have the heel, so they are a PITA.....to deal with.


[b]Yeah they definitely aren't cheap, but they will probably last me forever. I spray them down with solution of Simple Green and its great at floating away any removed material. the henkle santuko is one of their cheapo 40 dollar models but i love it and dont worry about it being abused or battered. The six inch chef does not have the heel yours does. but here's a couple of shots so you can see its geometry [b]


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